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| Author: | jhowell [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:26 am ] |
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For the most part I use what I presume to be the standard fret wire for steel string guitars -- Stew Mac Medium/Medium. My question arises from a thread in another forum revolving around the use of stainless steel frets to increase the longivity of the fret job. It was mentioned that some people use a very much softer wire to accomplish the same thing -- by using LMI FW72 designed for nylon stringed instuments, the longivity of the fret job seemed to be increased. It seems counter intuitive to me but I know nothing of the metalurgy involved. I also have relatively very few fret jobs under my belt, so I have no personal experience to draw upon. What are your opinions regarding the hardness of the fretwire vs the longivity of the fret job?
Happy Holidays to all!
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| Author: | martinedwards [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:04 am ] |
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no experience but LOGIC surely suggests that the harder the fret wire, the longer it'll take to wear..... |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:16 am ] |
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Don't know either Jim buddy but I owned a guitar with stainless fret wire and the playability was an improvement IMHO - it was a Parker Fly Deluxe. I also suspect with all good things there is a cost as well, perhaps it is more difficult to work with. Rick has been experimenting or working with in production, can't remember which, ceramic fret wire. Perhaps he will weigh-in here and help you out. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:58 am ] |
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Harder wire resists wear better than softer wire. Softer wire is easier to work with than harder wire. That's pretty much it. I have a list I put together of several rolling mills, and the brands and distributors they work through, with all the sizes and most of the hardness listed. There's 18% ns, 12%, EVO, Stainless, each of which can come tempered to a wide range of hardnesses. Then there are things like when Taylor used to use Monel wire before they turned to the soft current stuff. I though I had put up a long post some time ago, but couldn't find it in the archives. Anyway, it's all pretty boring. LMI, Allied, Shane, they all sell Jescar, which is by far my favorite. I never found for sure where StewMac gets theirs, but it's a very close second, bordering on equal in my opinion. I personally think Dunlop and the Martin replacement wires are pretty crappy in both shape quality and hardness. Stick with StewMac or Jescar stuff and you'll be fine. |
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| Author: | jhowell [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:39 am ] |
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Thanks David. I'll stick with what I have! |
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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:38 am ] |
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I have a Carvin 7 string its about 4 or 5 years old and i play it religiously and the frets have no where at all that i can see. Stainless is great but its harder on fretting tools. Harder to cut with standard fret end cutters. I think LMI has a cutter they sell just for stainless use. |
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| Author: | Dennis Leahy [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:21 pm ] |
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Hi Jim, One luthier on another forum reported his experience with the new LMI gold "Evo" alloy fretwire , and said he was able to use his regular fretting tools (which may not be true for stainless steel.) The hardness of the gold Evo is supposed to be between standard nickel silver and stainless steel. Sounds interesting to me. Anyone here have experience with it? FWIW, it looks to me like the FW74 is the standard, hard fretwire at LMI, and maybe they were talking about the FW75? From the LMI site: "FW75 Longer wearing because of its size, but softer and easier to work with " Dennis |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:29 pm ] |
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The EVO "gold" fret wire is made by Jescar, and they told me it comes hardened to about the same as their standard nickel silver wire, which is about HV5-200 (Vickers hardness scale). This is about as hard as the 18% nickel silver is tempered, and harder than about any other wire manufacturer. Shane Neifer distributes Jescar wire, as does LMI and I believe Allied Lutherie. |
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| Author: | bob_connor [ Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:37 pm ] |
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Dennis I used the Gold Evo fret wire on the 12 string I'm just finishing up. No more work than the standard fret wire I usually use which comes from LMI. Bob |
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| Author: | Dennis Leahy [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:39 am ] |
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[QUOTE=David Collins] The EVO "gold" fret wire is made by Jescar, and they told me it comes hardened to about the same as their standard nickel silver wire, which is about HV5-200 (Vickers hardness scale). This is about as hard as the 18% nickel silver is tempered, and harder than about any other wire manufacturer.[/QUOTE] Hi David, I'm not familiar with the Vickers hardness scale, and don't know if it is logarithmic like the Mohs hardness scale for stones, or if it is a straight scale. LMI makes it sound like the gold wire falls midway between 18% nickel-silver and stainless steel: "If working with stainless seems a little daunting, check out our new Evo gold fretwire. It is a copper alloy that has been used for years in the optical industry. It contains no nickel and therefore meets the "nickel free" European standard. It stands the test of time and can really dress up your guitar. With a Vicker's hardness of HV5/250, it is harder than our nickel/silver wire (HV5/200), but softer than the stainless (HV5/300). This wire is not plated; it is gold all the way through and retains the gold color once the frets are dressed." Again, now that I read back over that, I see that I was simply seeing 250 as halfway between 200 and 300, and interpreting that as midway, but that probably just shows that I don't understand the Vickers scale. Bob, I knew I saw that gold wire on some lovely instrument (and the discussion of working with it) - it was yours! Dennis |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:18 am ] |
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I must have been misinformed. I was told by someone at Jescar a few years back that the EVO wire was the same as the nickel silver. It was a question I asked in passing though, so perhaps the sales person slipped at gave me the wrong info. If they say it's HV5-250, I'm inclined to trust them on that because I was never given any specific numbers when I asked. I don't know how linear or logarithmic the Vickers hardness scale is, but I'm pretty sure it's not a straight linear. This a subjective guess, but from by experience the HV5-300 stainless wire is much more than 50% harder than the HV5-200 wire that a linear scale would put it at. Some manufacturers use the Brinell or the Rockwell B hardness scales by the way, but Vickers seems to be the most common in frets. I have to order some new wire soon, and I guess I'll have to give the EVO wire a shot. |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:58 am ] |
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I've been using stainless steel for a while now. It isn't a big deal and is MUCH harder. I don't know if you would ever need to do a refret. That said, if you bind your fretboards, you will need to make sure that the binding isn't very thick because the ends of the frets will pop up. You can glue them down with CA but I prefer to make sure they are well seated in the first place. I use Frank Ford's jig from LMII to prepare the frets for a bound fretboard and use their special cutters. I definitely takes me much more time to bevel the fret ends. In total, I would say an extra couple hours of work at the most per guitar. In my opinion, it is a superior way to build a guitar. And I am very interested in these ceramic frets I've heard Rick talking about. -- Simon |
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| Author: | FishtownMike [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:38 am ] |
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I believe the reason they came out with the gold wire is because europe has new laws on the use of toxic metals and nickel can be one. |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:22 am ] |
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The EVO wire is made with a proprietary allow they have that was developed for use in eye glass frames for people who have reactions to base metals or something. At any rate, it is harder than NS wire, looks great, ad yes, it's not hard at all to use. Harder to cut and file? sure, but it's not "Oh-My-God!!!!" hard. And once on the guitars and strung up, the gold coloring is so subtle that it is barely noticeable. |
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| Author: | jhowell [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:28 am ] |
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Thank you all for the additional information! I may have to try some of the EVO wire also. |
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